Skim font smoothing problem with Yosemite

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
12 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Skim font smoothing problem with Yosemite

Richard Seguin
It’s suggested on these web pages that Skim’s font smoothing looks terrible relative to other viewers under Yosemite because it is no longer using “sub pixel rendering”. Does anyone have an idea what this means at the coding level for this latest OS? TeXShop developers: is TeXShop using “sub pixel rendering”?

http://superuser.com/questions/829302/pdf-font-renderings-in-yosemite

https://twitter.com/makotokanazawa/status/524481913558298624

Richard Séguin

----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
List Reminders and Etiquette: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
List Archive: http://tug.org/pipermail/macostex-archives/
TeX on Mac OS X Website: http://mactex-wiki.tug.org/
List Info: https://email.esm.psu.edu/mailman/listinfo/macosx-tex
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Skim font smoothing problem with Yosemite

Herbert Schulz

> On Oct 24, 2014, at 11:30 AM, Richard Seguin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> It’s suggested on these web pages that Skim’s font smoothing looks terrible relative to other viewers under Yosemite because it is no longer using “sub pixel rendering”. Does anyone have an idea what this means at the coding level for this latest OS? TeXShop developers: is TeXShop using “sub pixel rendering”?
>
> http://superuser.com/questions/829302/pdf-font-renderings-in-yosemite
>
> https://twitter.com/makotokanazawa/status/524481913558298624
>
> Richard Séguin

Howdy,

As a side note, the TeX Preview window (I'm quite sure it also uses PDFKit) looks horrendous too.

Also, Monaco is unusable in BBEdit 11 but looks fine as the Source Window font in TeXShop.

Good Luck,

Herb Schulz
(herbs at wideopenwest dot com)




----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
List Reminders and Etiquette: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
List Archive: http://tug.org/pipermail/macostex-archives/
TeX on Mac OS X Website: http://mactex-wiki.tug.org/
List Info: https://email.esm.psu.edu/mailman/listinfo/macosx-tex
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Skim font smoothing problem with Yosemite

Gray, Gary L
> On Oct 24, 2014, at 12:57 PM, Herbert Schulz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As a side note, the TeX Preview window (I'm quite sure it also uses PDFKit) looks horrendous too.

Must be on a non-retina display. On my Mac's retina display, the preview window in TeXShop is gorgeous.

Gary

----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
List Reminders and Etiquette: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
List Archive: http://tug.org/pipermail/macostex-archives/
TeX on Mac OS X Website: http://mactex-wiki.tug.org/
List Info: https://email.esm.psu.edu/mailman/listinfo/macosx-tex
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Skim font smoothing problem with Yosemite

Richard Seguin
In reply to this post by Herbert Schulz

> On Oct 24, 2014, at 11:57 AM, Herbert Schulz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>> On Oct 24, 2014, at 11:30 AM, Richard Seguin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> It’s suggested on these web pages that Skim’s font smoothing looks terrible relative to other viewers under Yosemite because it is no longer using “sub pixel rendering”. Does anyone have an idea what this means at the coding level for this latest OS? TeXShop developers: is TeXShop using “sub pixel rendering”?
>>
>> http://superuser.com/questions/829302/pdf-font-renderings-in-yosemite
>>
>> https://twitter.com/makotokanazawa/status/524481913558298624
>>
>> Richard Séguin
>
> Howdy,
>
> As a side note, the TeX Preview window (I'm quite sure it also uses PDFKit) looks horrendous too.
>
> Also, Monaco is unusable in BBEdit 11 but looks fine as the Source Window font in TeXShop.
>
> Good Luck,
>
> Herb Schulz

On my non-retina display, TeXShop doesn’t reveal any more detail than Skim, but it’s more pleasant to look at. Skim looks rather harsh and ugly in contrast and is unpleasant to read.

As for Monaco, this from  http://barebones.com/support/bbedit/current_notes.html 

        "Antialiasing is now turned off for Monaco when used in editing views; this restores the legacy (and more legible) appearance on non-retina displays.”

I’m using the proportional font Georgia in BBEdit, and it looks fine. (Georgia works well for LaTeX and math since the (, [, and { characters are thick, easy to see, and well spaced.)

Richard Séguin


----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
List Reminders and Etiquette: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
List Archive: http://tug.org/pipermail/macostex-archives/
TeX on Mac OS X Website: http://mactex-wiki.tug.org/
List Info: https://email.esm.psu.edu/mailman/listinfo/macosx-tex
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Skim font smoothing problem with Yosemite

Berend Hasselman
In reply to this post by Herbert Schulz

On 24-10-2014, at 18:57, Herbert Schulz <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> On Oct 24, 2014, at 11:30 AM, Richard Seguin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> It’s suggested on these web pages that Skim’s font smoothing looks terrible relative to other viewers under Yosemite because it is no longer using “sub pixel rendering”. Does anyone have an idea what this means at the coding level for this latest OS? TeXShop developers: is TeXShop using “sub pixel rendering”?
>>
>> http://superuser.com/questions/829302/pdf-font-renderings-in-yosemite
>>
>> https://twitter.com/makotokanazawa/status/524481913558298624
>>
>> Richard Séguin
>
> Howdy,
>
> As a side note, the TeX Preview window (I'm quite sure it also uses PDFKit) looks horrendous too.
>
> Also, Monaco is unusable in BBEdit 11 but looks fine as the Source Window font in TeXShop.


I disabled antialiasing of Monaco in the Terminal in Mavericks with a non retina display.
It looks simply awful and certainly not legible.
I currently use Monaco in BBEdit but from what I’ve seen in Terminal I won’t be doing that for long in Yosemite in BBEdit.
(I haven’t switched to  11 yet).

Maybe you should complain to Barebones. And ask them to make antialiasing optional at the minimum.

Berend Hasselman


----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
List Reminders and Etiquette: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
List Archive: http://tug.org/pipermail/macostex-archives/
TeX on Mac OS X Website: http://mactex-wiki.tug.org/
List Info: https://email.esm.psu.edu/mailman/listinfo/macosx-tex
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Skim font smoothing problem with Yosemite

Herbert Schulz
In reply to this post by Gray, Gary L

> On Oct 24, 2014, at 1:03 PM, Gary L. Gray <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Oct 24, 2014, at 12:57 PM, Herbert Schulz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> As a side note, the TeX Preview window (I'm quite sure it also uses PDFKit) looks horrendous too.
>
> Must be on a non-retina display. On my Mac's retina display, the preview window in TeXShop is gorgeous.
>
> Gary

Howdy,

That's the TeX Preview window in BibDesk. The TeXShop Preview looks fine, much better than Skim or BibDesk; but I wouldn't say gorgeous.

Good Luck,

Herb Schulz
(herbs at wideopenwest dot com)




----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
List Reminders and Etiquette: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
List Archive: http://tug.org/pipermail/macostex-archives/
TeX on Mac OS X Website: http://mactex-wiki.tug.org/
List Info: https://email.esm.psu.edu/mailman/listinfo/macosx-tex
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Skim font smoothing problem with Yosemite

Herbert Schulz
In reply to this post by Richard Seguin

> On Oct 24, 2014, at 1:28 PM, Richard Seguin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As for Monaco, this from  http://barebones.com/support/bbedit/current_notes.html 
>
> "Antialiasing is now turned off for Monaco when used in editing views; this restores the legacy (and more legible) appearance on non-retina displays.”

Howdy,

But it looked ok on my MacBook Air while looking horrendous on my iMac.

Good Luck,

Herb Schulz
(herbs at wideopenwest dot com)




----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
List Reminders and Etiquette: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
List Archive: http://tug.org/pipermail/macostex-archives/
TeX on Mac OS X Website: http://mactex-wiki.tug.org/
List Info: https://email.esm.psu.edu/mailman/listinfo/macosx-tex
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Skim font smoothing problem with Yosemite

Richard Seguin

> On Oct 25, 2014, at 7:35 AM, Herbert Schulz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>> On Oct 24, 2014, at 1:28 PM, Richard Seguin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> As for Monaco, this from  http://barebones.com/support/bbedit/current_notes.html 
>>
>> "Antialiasing is now turned off for Monaco when used in editing views; this restores the legacy (and more legible) appearance on non-retina displays.”
>
> Howdy,
>
> But it looked ok on my MacBook Air while looking horrendous on my iMac.
>
> Good Luck,
>
> Herb Schulz

Herb,

Send your concerns to [hidden email]. It’s my personal experience that they actually listen to their customers and take their problems seriously.

Also, Apple needs to hear that there are widespread problems with font smoothing, and the more people (and hopefully developers) they hear from, the more likely they are to act on complaints. We can start here:  https://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

Always provide detail, i.e., “on my iMac with application X, this is what happens” and “on my MBP with application Y, this is what happens” and “when I’m using NEC professional monitor Z, this is what happens.”

I might have more to say on this later.

Richard

----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
List Reminders and Etiquette: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
List Archive: http://tug.org/pipermail/macostex-archives/
TeX on Mac OS X Website: http://mactex-wiki.tug.org/
List Info: https://email.esm.psu.edu/mailman/listinfo/macosx-tex
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Skim font smoothing problem with Yosemite

William Slough
Hi all,

I've been following this thread with interest, as I believe I have
similar problems ... but not on Yosemite, but still at Mavericks.  (I
am a slow adopter, and based on various things I'm reading I'm glad I
am!)

I am a long-time user of Skim, coupled with Aquamacs.  For over 6
years, on several different Macs (up to Snow Leopard), things were
beautiful.  Now, having updated to Mavericks in late August, I'm now
seeing various artifacts in PDF files I'm generating from LaTeX.  I
can't make it happen on demand, but it does happen with some
regularity that one or two lines of my otherwise nice-looking output
is messed up.  Scrolling up or down and/or zooming in or out fixes it,
but it would be much better if I didn't have to do this.

I have seen this happen on my personal machine and my office computer
(MacBook Pro + iMac; non-retina).

Every new major software release now makes me cringe, causing me to
wonder what it will break next.  Circumstantial evidence suggests that
this is Apple's problem, but I'm not expecting them to fix it ...
certainly not for Mavericks.

Bill Slough

On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Richard Seguin <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> On Oct 25, 2014, at 7:35 AM, Herbert Schulz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 24, 2014, at 1:28 PM, Richard Seguin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> As for Monaco, this from  http://barebones.com/support/bbedit/current_notes.html
>>>
>>>      "Antialiasing is now turned off for Monaco when used in editing views; this restores the legacy (and more legible) appearance on non-retina displays.”
>>
>> Howdy,
>>
>> But it looked ok on my MacBook Air while looking horrendous on my iMac.
>>
>> Good Luck,
>>
>> Herb Schulz
>
> Herb,
>
> Send your concerns to [hidden email]. It’s my personal experience that they actually listen to their customers and take their problems seriously.
>
> Also, Apple needs to hear that there are widespread problems with font smoothing, and the more people (and hopefully developers) they hear from, the more likely they are to act on complaints. We can start here:  https://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html
>
> Always provide detail, i.e., “on my iMac with application X, this is what happens” and “on my MBP with application Y, this is what happens” and “when I’m using NEC professional monitor Z, this is what happens.”
>
> I might have more to say on this later.
>
> Richard
>
> ----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
> TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
> List Reminders and Etiquette: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
> List Archive: http://tug.org/pipermail/macostex-archives/
> TeX on Mac OS X Website: http://mactex-wiki.tug.org/
> List Info: https://email.esm.psu.edu/mailman/listinfo/macosx-tex

----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
List Reminders and Etiquette: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
List Archive: http://tug.org/pipermail/macostex-archives/
TeX on Mac OS X Website: http://mactex-wiki.tug.org/
List Info: https://email.esm.psu.edu/mailman/listinfo/macosx-tex
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Skim font smoothing problem with Yosemite

Themis Matsoukas-6

> On Oct 25, 2014, at 11:37 AM, William Slough <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> […] Now, having updated to Mavericks in late August, I'm now
> seeing various artifacts in PDF files I'm generating from LaTeX.  I
> can't make it happen on demand, but it does happen with some
> regularity that one or two lines of my otherwise nice-looking output
> is messed up.  Scrolling up or down and/or zooming in or out fixes it,
> but it would be much better if I didn't have to do this.
>

This is a Mavericks problem. I saw it in Texshop with the native previewer, and also in Preview. In my case the bad lines would disappear if I scrolled one way (up or down, I forget) and reappear if I scrolled the other way. I’ve been on Yosemite for a couple days now and I don’t see this problem any more. Perhaps one reason why you should update :)

Themis
 


----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
List Reminders and Etiquette: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
List Archive: http://tug.org/pipermail/macostex-archives/
TeX on Mac OS X Website: http://mactex-wiki.tug.org/
List Info: https://email.esm.psu.edu/mailman/listinfo/macosx-tex
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Yosemite font smoothing - partial solution?

Richard Seguin
I found out that anytime you change font smoothing parameters, nothing changes until you reset your machine.

First I tried toggling off the “Use LCD font smoothing when available” option in the General pane of system preferences, then resetting. Skim looked much better. It was much less harsh looking and much more pleasant to read, though slightly soft and fuzzy. I checked some other applications and found that Safari was OK but maybe type in Mail looked a little worse than it did.

There is a terminal command with which you can vary font smoothing from 0 to 3 where 0 supposedly turns it off and 3 is the highest. I think that 2 might be the default. First I did

defaults -currentHost write -globalDomain AppleFontSmoothing -int 1

followed by a reset. Skim looked a little more harsh and ragged, but Mail was better. Then I tried

defaults -currentHost write -globalDomain AppleFontSmoothing -int 2

followed by a reset. Skim was starting to look a lot like it did with the default “Use LCD font smoothing when available” turned on (in other words, really bad).

Then I tried

defaults -currentHost write -globalDomain AppleFontSmoothing -int 3

followed by a reset. Based on the trend, I thought that Skim would look even worse with this set to 3, but in fact it looked better than 1 or 2, and I’m able to resolve sub-subscript symbols a little better. In conclusion, 0 and 3 make Skim more acceptable to work with. Still, I think the tiniest details are still not being resolved as well as it was pre-Yosemite. TeXShop still looks better than Skim at all settings.

I have a feeling that different panels may react differently to the different settings. If anyone else experiments with this, I would like to hear what happened.

Richard Séguin



----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
List Reminders and Etiquette: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
List Archive: http://tug.org/pipermail/macostex-archives/
TeX on Mac OS X Website: http://mactex-wiki.tug.org/
List Info: https://email.esm.psu.edu/mailman/listinfo/macosx-tex
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Yosemite font smoothing - partial solution?

Richard Seguin
From my previous post:

> On Oct 25, 2014, at 3:12 PM, Richard Seguin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I found out that anytime you change font smoothing parameters, nothing changes until you reset your machine.

Oops, I realized that this is false. Nothing changes in an application until you quit the application and then bring it back up again. It appears that the application handles fonts based on whatever the font smoothing parameter is set to at the time the application starts up. It turns out that this is good, and there is a reasonable workaround for Skim.

After a little more study I've concluded that when there is no system font smoothing (“Use LCD font smoothing when available” is toggled off but Skim’s own antialiasing option is turned on), Skim looks best on my non-retina panel, and in fact looks more or less like it always has. The problem is, fonts are then degraded in some other applications. But, if I could run

defaults -currentHost write -globalDomain AppleFontSmoothing -int 0

which turns system font smoothing off, just before starting Skim, and then run

defaults -currentHost write -globalDomain AppleFontSmoothing -int 2

which turns system font smoothing back on, just after starting Skim, then Skim would look good with no system font smoothing, and all other applications would retain the benefit of system font smoothing.

It’s a little tedious to run these system commands in the terminal every time I start Skim, or equivalently, to open up the system preferences panel to toggle “Use LCD font smoothing when available” on and off, so I created the following Applescript, naturally named “Skim”, and placed it in the Applescript menu in the menu bar on top of the screen.

do shell script "defaults -currentHost write -globalDomain AppleFontSmoothing -int 0"
tell application "Skim"
        activate
end tell
do shell script "defaults -currentHost write -globalDomain AppleFontSmoothing -int 2”

Now all I have to do is start Skim from this script menu with a single click. Then font smoothing looks good in Skim, and other applications are not affected.

I hate having to do workarounds for things that should just work correctly. Nevertheless this solution is quick, convenient, and requires little thought on my part to execute.

TeXShop is a bit of a mystery. In contrast to Skim, I discovered that the PDF preview window in TeXShop, which I presume uses PDFKit just like Skim, seems to be unaffected by changes to “Use LCD font smoothing when available” — off or on it seems to make little or no difference on my panel. TeXshop’s internal font smoothing preference also seems to make little or no difference. I haven’t looked closely at Preview yet.

(Mail’s automatic spelling correction feature keeps changing “TeXShop" to “Teashop"!)

Richard Séguin




----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
List Reminders and Etiquette: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
List Archive: http://tug.org/pipermail/macostex-archives/
TeX on Mac OS X Website: http://mactex-wiki.tug.org/
List Info: https://email.esm.psu.edu/mailman/listinfo/macosx-tex