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The microtype mystery

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Josep Maria Font-2

Re: The microtype mystery

El 18/08/2010, a las 19:21, Herbert Schulz escribió:

> It's clear that /usr/texbin is not on your PATH. What version of OS X are you using? Did you transfer everything from one machine to another?
>
> Assuming you are on Snow Leopard (actually I think this also is the way it works in Leopard too) take a look at parts (d) and (e) for the answer to QM.10 on the MacTeX FAQ, <http://www.tug.org/mactex/2009/faq/#qm10>. I know it refers to MacTeX-2008 but this will work for any MacTeX on Snow Leopard.
>
> Since things seem to work properly under GUI apps /usr/texbin seems to be defined and working correctly.

Thanks for pointing out that FAQ, Herb. Yes, I did use Migration Assistant to move everything to my new machine, which came with Snow Leopard. This was a 2008 TeXLive installation, and after some time I upgraded to 2009. And applying fix #d has solved the issue.

Now I can make my microtype timing more precise. For a 133-page manuscript, without \included graphics at all:

Without microtype:
real 0m4.266s
user 0m2.422s
sys 0m0.058s

With microtype (just uncommenting \usepackage{microtype}):
real 3m39.757s
user 3m37.741s
sys 0m0.151s

Which means increasing by a factor of 51.51. With a 27" iMac with 2.8GHz Intel Core i7 processor, 8Gb of RAM.

It would be certainly nice to improve this! Even if one uses microtype only in the final production stage, adjusting the many small spacing issues that appear entails typesetting many many times!

JMaF

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Herbert Schulz

Re: The microtype mystery

On Aug 18, 2010, at 12:54 PM, Josep Maria Font wrote:

> El 18/08/2010, a las 19:21, Herbert Schulz escribió:
>
>> It's clear that /usr/texbin is not on your PATH. What version of OS X are you using? Did you transfer everything from one machine to another?
>>
>> Assuming you are on Snow Leopard (actually I think this also is the way it works in Leopard too) take a look at parts (d) and (e) for the answer to QM.10 on the MacTeX FAQ, <http://www.tug.org/mactex/2009/faq/#qm10>. I know it refers to MacTeX-2008 but this will work for any MacTeX on Snow Leopard.
>>
>> Since things seem to work properly under GUI apps /usr/texbin seems to be defined and working correctly.
>
> Thanks for pointing out that FAQ, Herb. Yes, I did use Migration Assistant to move everything to my new machine, which came with Snow Leopard. This was a 2008 TeXLive installation, and after some time I upgraded to 2009. And applying fix #d has solved the issue.
>
> Now I can make my microtype timing more precise. For a 133-page manuscript, without \included graphics at all:
>
> Without microtype:
> real 0m4.266s
> user 0m2.422s
> sys 0m0.058s
>
> With microtype (just uncommenting \usepackage{microtype}):
> real 3m39.757s
> user 3m37.741s
> sys 0m0.151s
>
> Which means increasing by a factor of 51.51. With a 27" iMac with 2.8GHz Intel Core i7 processor, 8Gb of RAM.
>
> It would be certainly nice to improve this! Even if one uses microtype only in the final production stage, adjusting the many small spacing issues that appear entails typesetting many many times!
>
>
> JMaF
>

Howdy,

For completeness, what is the command line you are using? Are you simply commenting/un-commenting the \usepackage{microtype} line/

Good Luck,

Herb Schulz
(herbs at wideopenwest dot com)

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Josep Maria Font-2

Re: The microtype mystery

In reply to this post by Richard Koch

El 18/08/2010, a las 19:11, Richard Koch escribió:

> You need to add
>
> /usr/texbin
>
> to the shell initialization script yourself if you don't use the default Apple shell. You should add it before
> /opt/local/bin to avoid confusing TeX with a possible MacPorts version of TeX. This is covered
> in a FAQ entry at www.tug.org/mactex.

Thanks for caring, Richard. I said "my bash" and perhaps you thought I was using a non-standard shell; sorry for that, I was just meaning "the bash of my machine", which is completely standard. I already followed the instructions of that FAQ (the upgrading problem) and everything is fine again.

JMaF

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George Gratzer-4

Re: The microtype mystery

In reply to this post by RS-2

Hi Robert,

I created by pasting a math article of 811 pages. Microtyped it is 802 pages.

Times:

real 0m2.442s
user 0m2.364s
sys 0m0.074s

microtyped:

real 0m4.226s
user 0m4.115s
sys 0m0.088s

Go figure.

GG

On 2010-08-17, at 7:06 PM, Robert wrote:

> Hi George,
>
> this is still not enough information, I'm afraid. I've just tested a document using the packages you list with a 1000 pages of text, but this still does not yield the exponential time consumption you experience. So something else must be going wrong. Maybe you could send me (privately) your document if the contents aren't confidential? Or else, could you post the log file with microtype loaded with the `verbose' option?
>
> Regards,
> Robert
>
> PS. Shall we stay on the Mac OS X list?
>
>
> On 15.08.10 23:11, George Gratzer wrote:
>> My book is 606 pages long. It is a single file plus the .ind file and125 pdf illustrations.
>>
>> Here are the packages used:
>>
>> amsmath
>> amsthm
>> amsxtra
>> \RequirePackage[mathscr]{eucal
>> amssymb
>> latexsym
>> amscd
>> graphicx
>> color
>> mdwlist
>> chngcntr
>> color
>> booktabs
>> \usepackage{url
>> fixltx2e
>> verbatim
>> enumerate
>> xspace
>>
>> Typeset time as reported by "time":
>>
>> real 0m2.595s
>> user 0m2.527s
>> sys 0m0.063s
>>
>> that is, 3 secs. pdf file is 4.4 MB.
>>
>> Now if I use the microtype package( the book is now 3 pages shorter):
>>
>> real 0m35.443s
>> user 0m35.155s
>> sys 0m0.115s
>>
>> typesetting is over 35 secs. pdf file is 4.6 MB.
>>
>> My iMac has 8GB memory; the whole ms with illustrations is
>> tiny in comparison: about 40 MB.
>>
>> Anything I could do to speed up this typesetting?
>>
>> GG
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
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Herbert Schulz

Re: The microtype mystery

On Aug 18, 2010, at 1:54 PM, George Gratzer wrote:

> Hi Robert,
>
> I created by pasting a math article of 811 pages. Microtyped it is 802 pages.
>
> Times:
>
> real 0m2.442s
> user 0m2.364s
> sys 0m0.074s
>
> microtyped:
>
> real 0m4.226s
> user 0m4.115s
> sys 0m0.088s
>
> Go figure.
>
> GG
>

Howdy,

To be complete, what command line did you use?

Good Luck,

Herb Schulz
(herbs at wideopenwest dot com)

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RS-2

Re: The microtype mystery

In reply to this post by George Gratzer-4

On 18.08.10 20:54, George Gratzer wrote:
> Go figure.

Once again, this is very difficult without a test document. And just in
case it isn't clear: this does not happen for me, nor for everybody. So
there must be some kind of bad interaction with other packages going on,
which I can only debug with a real example.

Regards,
--
Robert

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George Gratzer-4

Re: The microtype mystery

In reply to this post by Herbert Schulz

time latex filename

GG

On 2010-08-18, at 3:19 PM, Herbert Schulz wrote:

>
> On Aug 18, 2010, at 1:54 PM, George Gratzer wrote:
>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>> I created by pasting a math article of 811 pages. Microtyped it is 802 pages.
>>
>> Times:
>>
>> real 0m2.442s
>> user 0m2.364s
>> sys 0m0.074s
>>
>> microtyped:
>>
>> real 0m4.226s
>> user 0m4.115s
>> sys 0m0.088s
>>
>> Go figure.
>>
>> GG
>>
>
> Howdy,
>
> To be complete, what command line did you use?
>
> Good Luck,
>
> Herb Schulz
> (herbs at wideopenwest dot com)
>
>
>
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George Gratzer-4

Re: The microtype mystery

In reply to this post by RS-2

I emailed you the "article".

GG

On 2010-08-18, at 3:52 PM, Robert wrote:

> On 18.08.10 20:54, George Gratzer wrote:
>> Go figure.
>
> Once again, this is very difficult without a test document. And just in case it isn't clear: this does not happen for me, nor for everybody. So there must be some kind of bad interaction with other packages going on, which I can only debug with a real example.
>
> Regards,
> --
> Robert
>
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RS-2

Re: The microtype mystery

On 19.08.10 04:22, George Gratzer wrote:
> I emailed you the "article".

Thanks. I get similar results, i.e. the compilation time (almost)
doubles when using microtype. Although this is a bit more than I would
have expected (and probably only occurs with huge documents, where tex's
main work consists in the actual typesetting as opposed to executing
packages' macros), I guess it's more or less unavoidable. pdftex is
slower since it has more paragraph-breaking options to consider, and the
microtype package itself also takes up some time.
However, this (0m2.442s vs. 0m4.226s) is far from the times you
mentioned in your original post (0m2.595s vs. 0m35.443s), and even
farther from Josep Maria's extreme times (0m4.266s vs. 3m39.757s).
So, if the compilation time only more or less doubles, I don't think
there's much I can do about it. If there really are cases where
typesetting takes ten or even fifty times longer, then I am still in
want of example documents (hint for Josep Maria... ;-).

Regards,
--
Robert

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Josep Maria Font-2

Re: The microtype mystery

In reply to this post by Herbert Schulz

El 18/08/2010, a las 20:03, Herbert Schulz escribió:

> For completeness, what is the command line you are using? Are you simply commenting/un-commenting the \usepackage{microtype} line/

Yes, just that !

This morning I have changed machine and file, and here are the results:

On a MacMini with 2GHz Intel Core 2 Duo with 1 GB RAM, and a standard 2009 MacTeX installation.

A 16-page paper with very simple text and formulas using Computer Modern and no strange packages nor graphics:

Without microtype:
real 0m3.649s
user 0m1.622s
sys 0m0.072s

With microtype:
real 2m48.568s
user 2m47.323s
sys 0m0.175s

Again, a very large increase factor! The preamble of the document is:

\documentclass[a4paper]{article}
\usepackage{fixltx2e}
\usepackage{amssymb,latexsym}
\usepackage{amsmath,amsthm}
\usepackage{bm}
\usepackage{enumerate}
\usepackage{mathtools}
\usepackage{url}

I will e-mail the files privately to Robert.

Thanks for your interest to all.

JMaF

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Martin Costabel

Re: The microtype mystery

Josep Maria Font wrote:
[]

> Again, a very large increase factor! The preamble of the document is:
>
> \documentclass[a4paper]{article}
> \usepackage{fixltx2e}
> \usepackage{amssymb,latexsym}
> \usepackage{amsmath,amsthm}
> \usepackage{bm}
> \usepackage{enumerate}
> \usepackage{mathtools}
> \usepackage{url}
>
> I will e-mail the files privately to Robert.

Here is another data point, obtained by playing with your preamble.

From my own experiment, I would suspect the interaction of microtype
with the latexsym or similar packages:

I took some random article of mine (46 pages; if others want to repeat
this experiment, the latex sources, two files, are publicly available
here: <http://arxiv.org/format/1002.1772v1>). Then I inserted after the
\documentclass line

\usepackage{microtype}

and then \usepackage{latexsym}, or alternatively just the following two
lines from latexsym.sty:

\DeclareSymbolFont{lasy}{U}{lasy}{m}{n}
\SetSymbolFont{lasy}{bold}{U}{lasy}{b}{n}

These two lines do absolutely nothing visible, as far as I can tell. But
here are the timings from

time pdflatex CoDaNi_2010_art1

on my MbookPro core2duo:

Original file:
user 0m1.835s

With just the two lines from latexsym.sty:
user 0m1.909s

With \usepackage{microtype} alone:
user 0m8.591s

With \usepackage{microtype} plus the two lines from latexsym.sty:
user 0m49.910s

This is a factor of roughly 5 for microtype alone, and of 25 for
microtype+latexsym. The extra time is spent in raw computing cpu time,
no system calls or disk activity.

--
Martin

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Herbert Schulz

Re: The microtype mystery

On Aug 20, 2010, at 4:56 AM, Martin Costabel wrote:

> Josep Maria Font wrote:
> []
>> Again, a very large increase factor! The preamble of the document is:
>> \documentclass[a4paper]{article}
>> \usepackage{fixltx2e}
>> \usepackage{amssymb,latexsym} \usepackage{amsmath,amsthm}
>> \usepackage{bm} \usepackage{enumerate}
>> \usepackage{mathtools}
>> \usepackage{url}
>> I will e-mail the files privately to Robert.
>
> Here is another data point, obtained by playing with your preamble.
>
> From my own experiment, I would suspect the interaction of microtype with the latexsym or similar packages:
>
> I took some random article of mine (46 pages; if others want to repeat this experiment, the latex sources, two files, are publicly available here: <http://arxiv.org/format/1002.1772v1>). Then I inserted after the \documentclass line
>
> \usepackage{microtype}
>
> and then \usepackage{latexsym}, or alternatively just the following two lines from latexsym.sty:
>
> \DeclareSymbolFont{lasy}{U}{lasy}{m}{n}
> \SetSymbolFont{lasy}{bold}{U}{lasy}{b}{n}
>
> These two lines do absolutely nothing visible, as far as I can tell. But here are the timings from
>
> time pdflatex CoDaNi_2010_art1
>
> on my MbookPro core2duo:
>
> Original file:
> user 0m1.835s
>
> With just the two lines from latexsym.sty:
> user 0m1.909s
>
> With \usepackage{microtype} alone:
> user 0m8.591s
>
> With \usepackage{microtype} plus the two lines from latexsym.sty:
> user 0m49.910s
>
> This is a factor of roughly 5 for microtype alone, and of 25 for microtype+latexsym. The extra time is spent in raw computing cpu time, no system calls or disk activity.
>
> --
> Martin
>

Howdy,

Interestingly, the amssymb package---which loads the amsfonts package---appears to have all the symbols that latexsym contains so there is no need for the duplication and the speed difference is obvious. Am I wrong here?

Good Luck,

Herb Schulz
(herbs at wideopenwest dot com)

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George Gratzer-4

Re: The microtype mystery

I just woke up that my problem is solved!

> Interestingly, the amssymb package---which loads the amsfonts package---appears to have all the symbols that latexsym contains so there is no need for the duplication and the speed difference is obvious. Am I wrong here?

First, Herb you are wrong. My recollection is that latexsym defines about a dozen symbols
that amsfonts does not. It seems, however, that I do not need any one of them. So I commented out

\RequirePackage{latexsym}

in the sty file and here are the results:

without microtype:

real 0m2.604s
user 0m2.534s
sys 0m0.067s

with microtype:

real 0m7.172s
user 0m7.103s
sys 0m0.062s

PERFECT!

I am really grateful for your help Martin and Herb. Ido not know how you came up
with the idea that latexsym could be a factor. To me it was only a definition
of a dozen commands...

I will report soon what these times are like with the new iMac.

GG

On 2010-08-20, at 7:41 AM, Herbert Schulz wrote:

>
> On Aug 20, 2010, at 4:56 AM, Martin Costabel wrote:
>
>> Josep Maria Font wrote:
>> []
>>> Again, a very large increase factor! The preamble of the document is:
>>> \documentclass[a4paper]{article}
>>> \usepackage{fixltx2e}
>>> \usepackage{amssymb,latexsym} \usepackage{amsmath,amsthm}
>>> \usepackage{bm} \usepackage{enumerate}
>>> \usepackage{mathtools}
>>> \usepackage{url}
>>> I will e-mail the files privately to Robert.
>>
>> Here is another data point, obtained by playing with your preamble.
>>
>> From my own experiment, I would suspect the interaction of microtype with the latexsym or similar packages:
>>
>> I took some random article of mine (46 pages; if others want to repeat this experiment, the latex sources, two files, are publicly available here: <http://arxiv.org/format/1002.1772v1>). Then I inserted after the \documentclass line
>>
>> \usepackage{microtype}
>>
>> and then \usepackage{latexsym}, or alternatively just the following two lines from latexsym.sty:
>>
>> \DeclareSymbolFont{lasy}{U}{lasy}{m}{n}
>> \SetSymbolFont{lasy}{bold}{U}{lasy}{b}{n}
>>
>> These two lines do absolutely nothing visible, as far as I can tell. But here are the timings from
>>
>> time pdflatex CoDaNi_2010_art1
>>
>> on my MbookPro core2duo:
>>
>> Original file:
>> user 0m1.835s
>>
>> With just the two lines from latexsym.sty:
>> user 0m1.909s
>>
>> With \usepackage{microtype} alone:
>> user 0m8.591s
>>
>> With \usepackage{microtype} plus the two lines from latexsym.sty:
>> user 0m49.910s
>>
>> This is a factor of roughly 5 for microtype alone, and of 25 for microtype+latexsym. The extra time is spent in raw computing cpu time, no system calls or disk activity.
>>
>> --
>> Martin
>>
>
> Howdy,
>
> Interestingly, the amssymb package---which loads the amsfonts package---appears to have all the symbols that latexsym contains so there is no need for the duplication and the speed difference is obvious. Am I wrong here?
>
> Good Luck,
>
> Herb Schulz
> (herbs at wideopenwest dot com)
>
>
>
> ----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
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>

Martin Berggren

Re: The microtype mystery

But the really interesting problem for us outsiders is why this happens...

On Aug 20, 2010, at 17:02 , George Gratzer wrote:

> I just woke up that my problem is solved!
>
>> Interestingly, the amssymb package---which loads the amsfonts package---appears to have all the symbols that latexsym contains so there is no need for the duplication and the speed difference is obvious. Am I wrong here?
>
> First, Herb you are wrong. My recollection is that latexsym defines about a dozen symbols
> that amsfonts does not. It seems, however, that I do not need any one of them. So I commented out
>
> \RequirePackage{latexsym}
>
> in the sty file and here are the results:
>
> without microtype:
>
> real 0m2.604s
> user 0m2.534s
> sys 0m0.067s
>
> with microtype:
>
> real 0m7.172s
> user 0m7.103s
> sys 0m0.062s
>
> PERFECT!
>
> I am really grateful for your help Martin and Herb. Ido not know how you came up
> with the idea that latexsym could be a factor. To me it was only a definition
> of a dozen commands...
>
> I will report soon what these times are like with the new iMac.
>
> GG
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2010-08-20, at 7:41 AM, Herbert Schulz wrote:
>
>>
>> On Aug 20, 2010, at 4:56 AM, Martin Costabel wrote:
>>
>>> Josep Maria Font wrote:
>>> []
>>>> Again, a very large increase factor! The preamble of the document is:
>>>> \documentclass[a4paper]{article}
>>>> \usepackage{fixltx2e}
>>>> \usepackage{amssymb,latexsym} \usepackage{amsmath,amsthm}
>>>> \usepackage{bm} \usepackage{enumerate}
>>>> \usepackage{mathtools}
>>>> \usepackage{url}
>>>> I will e-mail the files privately to Robert.
>>>
>>> Here is another data point, obtained by playing with your preamble.
>>>
>>> From my own experiment, I would suspect the interaction of microtype with the latexsym or similar packages:
>>>
>>> I took some random article of mine (46 pages; if others want to repeat this experiment, the latex sources, two files, are publicly available here: <http://arxiv.org/format/1002.1772v1>). Then I inserted after the \documentclass line
>>>
>>> \usepackage{microtype}
>>>
>>> and then \usepackage{latexsym}, or alternatively just the following two lines from latexsym.sty:
>>>
>>> \DeclareSymbolFont{lasy}{U}{lasy}{m}{n}
>>> \SetSymbolFont{lasy}{bold}{U}{lasy}{b}{n}
>>>
>>> These two lines do absolutely nothing visible, as far as I can tell. But here are the timings from
>>>
>>> time pdflatex CoDaNi_2010_art1
>>>
>>> on my MbookPro core2duo:
>>>
>>> Original file:
>>> user 0m1.835s
>>>
>>> With just the two lines from latexsym.sty:
>>> user 0m1.909s
>>>
>>> With \usepackage{microtype} alone:
>>> user 0m8.591s
>>>
>>> With \usepackage{microtype} plus the two lines from latexsym.sty:
>>> user 0m49.910s
>>>
>>> This is a factor of roughly 5 for microtype alone, and of 25 for microtype+latexsym. The extra time is spent in raw computing cpu time, no system calls or disk activity.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Martin
>>>
>>
>> Howdy,
>>
>> Interestingly, the amssymb package---which loads the amsfonts package---appears to have all the symbols that latexsym contains so there is no need for the duplication and the speed difference is obvious. Am I wrong here?
>>
>> Good Luck,
>>
>> Herb Schulz
>> (herbs at wideopenwest dot com)
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
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>>
>
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Martin Berggren

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Department of Computing Science, Umeå Universitet
S-901 87 Umeå, Sweden. http://www.cs.umu.se/~martinb,
[hidden email], Ph: +46-90-786 6307, +46-70-732 8111 (cell)

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George Gratzer-4

Re: The microtype mystery

By the way, Martin, off topic, I am really impressed by your fellow Swede,
the journalist Blomkvist. He would have had the courage and tenacity
to solve this mystery, especially, if helped by Lisbeth.

GG

On 2010-08-20, at 10:06 AM, Martin Berggren wrote:

> But the really interesting problem for us outsiders is why this happens...
>
> On Aug 20, 2010, at 17:02 , George Gratzer wrote:
>
>> I just woke up that my problem is solved!
>>
>>> Interestingly, the amssymb package---which loads the amsfonts package---appears to have all the symbols that latexsym contains so there is no need for the duplication and the speed difference is obvious. Am I wrong here?
>>
>> First, Herb you are wrong. My recollection is that latexsym defines about a dozen symbols
>> that amsfonts does not. It seems, however, that I do not need any one of them. So I commented out
>>
>> \RequirePackage{latexsym}
>>
>> in the sty file and here are the results:
>>
>> without microtype:
>>
>> real 0m2.604s
>> user 0m2.534s
>> sys 0m0.067s
>>
>> with microtype:
>>
>> real 0m7.172s
>> user 0m7.103s
>> sys 0m0.062s
>>
>> PERFECT!
>>
>> I am really grateful for your help Martin and Herb. Ido not know how you came up
>> with the idea that latexsym could be a factor. To me it was only a definition
>> of a dozen commands...
>>
>> I will report soon what these times are like with the new iMac.
>>
>> GG
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2010-08-20, at 7:41 AM, Herbert Schulz wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 20, 2010, at 4:56 AM, Martin Costabel wrote:
>>>
>>>> Josep Maria Font wrote:
>>>> []
>>>>> Again, a very large increase factor! The preamble of the document is:
>>>>> \documentclass[a4paper]{article}
>>>>> \usepackage{fixltx2e}
>>>>> \usepackage{amssymb,latexsym} \usepackage{amsmath,amsthm}
>>>>> \usepackage{bm} \usepackage{enumerate}
>>>>> \usepackage{mathtools}
>>>>> \usepackage{url}
>>>>> I will e-mail the files privately to Robert.
>>>>
>>>> Here is another data point, obtained by playing with your preamble.
>>>>
>>>> From my own experiment, I would suspect the interaction of microtype with the latexsym or similar packages:
>>>>
>>>> I took some random article of mine (46 pages; if others want to repeat this experiment, the latex sources, two files, are publicly available here: <http://arxiv.org/format/1002.1772v1>). Then I inserted after the \documentclass line
>>>>
>>>> \usepackage{microtype}
>>>>
>>>> and then \usepackage{latexsym}, or alternatively just the following two lines from latexsym.sty:
>>>>
>>>> \DeclareSymbolFont{lasy}{U}{lasy}{m}{n}
>>>> \SetSymbolFont{lasy}{bold}{U}{lasy}{b}{n}
>>>>
>>>> These two lines do absolutely nothing visible, as far as I can tell. But here are the timings from
>>>>
>>>> time pdflatex CoDaNi_2010_art1
>>>>
>>>> on my MbookPro core2duo:
>>>>
>>>> Original file:
>>>> user 0m1.835s
>>>>
>>>> With just the two lines from latexsym.sty:
>>>> user 0m1.909s
>>>>
>>>> With \usepackage{microtype} alone:
>>>> user 0m8.591s
>>>>
>>>> With \usepackage{microtype} plus the two lines from latexsym.sty:
>>>> user 0m49.910s
>>>>
>>>> This is a factor of roughly 5 for microtype alone, and of 25 for microtype+latexsym. The extra time is spent in raw computing cpu time, no system calls or disk activity.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Martin
>>>>
>>>
>>> Howdy,
>>>
>>> Interestingly, the amssymb package---which loads the amsfonts package---appears to have all the symbols that latexsym contains so there is no need for the duplication and the speed difference is obvious. Am I wrong here?
>>>
>>> Good Luck,
>>>
>>> Herb Schulz
>>> (herbs at wideopenwest dot com)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
>>> TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
>>> List Reminders and Etiquette: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
>>> List Archive: http://tug.org/pipermail/macostex-archives/
>>> TeX on Mac OS X Website: http://mactex-wiki.tug.org/
>>> List Info: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mailman/listinfo/macosx-tex
>>>
>>
>> ----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
>> TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
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>> TeX on Mac OS X Website: http://mactex-wiki.tug.org/
>> List Info: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mailman/listinfo/macosx-tex
>>
>
> Martin Berggren
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Department of Computing Science, Umeå Universitet
> S-901 87 Umeå, Sweden. http://www.cs.umu.se/~martinb,
> [hidden email], Ph: +46-90-786 6307, +46-70-732 8111 (cell)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
> TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
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>

Martin Berggren

Re: The microtype mystery

Oh gosh, I do not think they are really the types for microtype.

Now, that was a bad joke. I should really go home and cook dinner.

Cheers,

On Aug 20, 2010, at 17:17 , George Gratzer wrote:

> By the way, Martin, off topic, I am really impressed by your fellow Swede,
> the journalist Blomkvist. He would have had the courage and tenacity
> to solve this mystery, especially, if helped by Lisbeth.
>
> GG
>
>
> On 2010-08-20, at 10:06 AM, Martin Berggren wrote:
>
>> But the really interesting problem for us outsiders is why this happens...
>>
>> On Aug 20, 2010, at 17:02 , George Gratzer wrote:
>>
>>> I just woke up that my problem is solved!
>>>
>>>> Interestingly, the amssymb package---which loads the amsfonts package---appears to have all the symbols that latexsym contains so there is no need for the duplication and the speed difference is obvious. Am I wrong here?
>>>
>>> First, Herb you are wrong. My recollection is that latexsym defines about a dozen symbols
>>> that amsfonts does not. It seems, however, that I do not need any one of them. So I commented out
>>>
>>> \RequirePackage{latexsym}
>>>
>>> in the sty file and here are the results:
>>>
>>> without microtype:
>>>
>>> real 0m2.604s
>>> user 0m2.534s
>>> sys 0m0.067s
>>>
>>> with microtype:
>>>
>>> real 0m7.172s
>>> user 0m7.103s
>>> sys 0m0.062s
>>>
>>> PERFECT!
>>>
>>> I am really grateful for your help Martin and Herb. Ido not know how you came up
>>> with the idea that latexsym could be a factor. To me it was only a definition
>>> of a dozen commands...
>>>
>>> I will report soon what these times are like with the new iMac.
>>>
>>> GG
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2010-08-20, at 7:41 AM, Herbert Schulz wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 20, 2010, at 4:56 AM, Martin Costabel wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Josep Maria Font wrote:
>>>>> []
>>>>>> Again, a very large increase factor! The preamble of the document is:
>>>>>> \documentclass[a4paper]{article}
>>>>>> \usepackage{fixltx2e}
>>>>>> \usepackage{amssymb,latexsym} \usepackage{amsmath,amsthm}
>>>>>> \usepackage{bm} \usepackage{enumerate}
>>>>>> \usepackage{mathtools}
>>>>>> \usepackage{url}
>>>>>> I will e-mail the files privately to Robert.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is another data point, obtained by playing with your preamble.
>>>>>
>>>>> From my own experiment, I would suspect the interaction of microtype with the latexsym or similar packages:
>>>>>
>>>>> I took some random article of mine (46 pages; if others want to repeat this experiment, the latex sources, two files, are publicly available here: <http://arxiv.org/format/1002.1772v1>). Then I inserted after the \documentclass line
>>>>>
>>>>> \usepackage{microtype}
>>>>>
>>>>> and then \usepackage{latexsym}, or alternatively just the following two lines from latexsym.sty:
>>>>>
>>>>> \DeclareSymbolFont{lasy}{U}{lasy}{m}{n}
>>>>> \SetSymbolFont{lasy}{bold}{U}{lasy}{b}{n}
>>>>>
>>>>> These two lines do absolutely nothing visible, as far as I can tell. But here are the timings from
>>>>>
>>>>> time pdflatex CoDaNi_2010_art1
>>>>>
>>>>> on my MbookPro core2duo:
>>>>>
>>>>> Original file:
>>>>> user 0m1.835s
>>>>>
>>>>> With just the two lines from latexsym.sty:
>>>>> user 0m1.909s
>>>>>
>>>>> With \usepackage{microtype} alone:
>>>>> user 0m8.591s
>>>>>
>>>>> With \usepackage{microtype} plus the two lines from latexsym.sty:
>>>>> user 0m49.910s
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a factor of roughly 5 for microtype alone, and of 25 for microtype+latexsym. The extra time is spent in raw computing cpu time, no system calls or disk activity.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Martin
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Howdy,
>>>>
>>>> Interestingly, the amssymb package---which loads the amsfonts package---appears to have all the symbols that latexsym contains so there is no need for the duplication and the speed difference is obvious. Am I wrong here?
>>>>
>>>> Good Luck,
>>>>
>>>> Herb Schulz
>>>> (herbs at wideopenwest dot com)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
>>>> TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
>>>> List Reminders and Etiquette: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
>>>> List Archive: http://tug.org/pipermail/macostex-archives/
>>>> TeX on Mac OS X Website: http://mactex-wiki.tug.org/
>>>> List Info: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mailman/listinfo/macosx-tex
>>>>
>>>
>>> ----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
>>> TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
>>> List Reminders and Etiquette: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
>>> List Archive: http://tug.org/pipermail/macostex-archives/
>>> TeX on Mac OS X Website: http://mactex-wiki.tug.org/
>>> List Info: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mailman/listinfo/macosx-tex
>>>
>>
>> Martin Berggren
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Department of Computing Science, Umeå Universitet
>> S-901 87 Umeå, Sweden. http://www.cs.umu.se/~martinb,
>> [hidden email], Ph: +46-90-786 6307, +46-70-732 8111 (cell)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
>> TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
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>>
>
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Herbert Schulz

Re: The microtype mystery

In reply to this post by George Gratzer-4

On Aug 20, 2010, at 10:02 AM, George Gratzer wrote:

> I just woke up that my problem is solved!
>
>> Interestingly, the amssymb package---which loads the amsfonts package---appears to have all the symbols that latexsym contains so there is no need for the duplication and the speed difference is obvious. Am I wrong here?
>
> First, Herb you are wrong. My recollection is that latexsym defines about a dozen symbols
> that amsfonts does not. It seems, however, that I do not need any one of them. So I commented out
>

Howdy,

I'm only going by what Kopka & Daly have in `Guide to LaTeX'. Also, the only difference between amssymb and latexsym noted in `The Comprehensive LaTeX Symbol List' is that a different glyph is used for \Diamond in the two packages; amsfonts (read by the amssymb package on loading) uses the same glyph and \lozenge.

Good Luck,

Herb Schulz
(herbs at wideopenwest dot com)

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Josep Maria Font-2

Re: The microtype mystery

El 20/08/2010, a las 17:26, Herbert Schulz escribió:

> On Aug 20, 2010, at 10:02 AM, George Gratzer wrote:
>
>> I just woke up that my problem is solved!
>>
>>> Interestingly, the amssymb package---which loads the amsfonts package---appears to have all the symbols that latexsym contains so there is no need for the duplication and the speed difference is obvious. Am I wrong here?
>>
>> First, Herb you are wrong. My recollection is that latexsym defines about a dozen symbols
>> that amsfonts does not. It seems, however, that I do not need any one of them. So I commented out
>
> I'm only going by what Kopka & Daly have in `Guide to LaTeX'. Also, the only difference between amssymb and latexsym noted in `The Comprehensive LaTeX Symbol List' is that a different glyph is used for \Diamond in the two packages; amsfonts (read by the amssymb package on loading) uses the same glyph and \lozenge.

This is precisely *my* reason to load latexsym (*after* amssymb): I want a real Diamond and not a lozenge; they *are* different things! I have always considered this a *bug* in amssymb! \Box and \Diamond are two extremely common symbols in modal logic... (btw, I redefine \Box to \square which, although slightly bigger, gets aligned with the baseline...).

Now, Martin, thank you very much for having discovered this issue. Here are my timings with the iMac, for the 16-page paper:

Without microtype (but with latexsym):
real 0m1.035s
user 0m1.002s
sys 0m0.026s

With microtype and NO latexsym:
real 0m5.538s
user 0m5.504s
sys 0m0.029s

With microtype AND latexsym:
real 2m16.795s
user 2m16.659s
sys 0m0.160s

I would say here the difference, a factor of 4, is more or less to be expected.

However, for the 133-page paper:

Without microtype (but with latexsym):
real 0m4.266s
user 0m2.422s
sys 0m0.058s

With microtype but NO latexsym:
real 1m30.156s
user 1m28.743s
sys 0m0.069s

With microtype AND latexsym:
real 3m39.757s
user 3m37.741s
sys 0m0.151s

Here the difference between first and second runs is around 22 times, this seems still too much, doesn't it ? For other interested people, the used packages in this case are (many intermediate lines deleted):

\documentclass[a4paper]{article}
\usepackage{fixltx2e}
\usepackage[latin1]{inputenc}
\usepackage[english]{babel}
\usepackage{amsmath}
\usepackage{amssymb}
\usepackage{bm}
\usepackage{enumerate}
\usepackage{verbatim}
\usepackage{mathtools}
\usepackage{url}
\usepackage[pdftex,bookmarks,bookmarksnumbered,linktocpage,
colorlinks,linkcolor=blue,citecolor=blue,pagebackref]{hyperref}
\usepackage{microtype}
\usepackage[slantedGreek]{mathpazo}
\usepackage[scaled]{helvet}
\usepackage{courier}
\usepackage[T1]{fontenc}
\usepackage{textcomp}
\usepackage[myheadings]{fullpage}
\usepackage{fancyhdr}
\usepackage[amsmath,thmmarks]{ntheorem}

Another package I suspect is {bm}, which I think constructs its symbols on the fly, unless one uses \bmdefine; I use it in many cases, but perhaps there remain several isolated \bm commands here and there...

Anyway, now the figures are closer to accceptable, especially if I \include single chapters. For me, it remains to find a workable \Diamond definition...

Best,

JMaF

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Peter Dyballa

Re: The microtype mystery

In reply to this post by Martin Costabel

Am 20.08.2010 um 11:56 schrieb Martin Costabel:

> \usepackage{microtype}
>
> and then \usepackage{latexsym}

On a G4 with Leopard (10.5.8) the first package slows down compilation
with pdflatex by a factor of 5-6. Adding the second package has
another braking effect of once more quite the same factor, so that
both together slow down compilation by a factor of around 30. The
microtype option activate={true,nocompatibility} has only a minor
influence, some percent, verbose=true similarly.

Is someone going to discuss these findings with Frank Mittelbach
(latexsym) and Robert Schlicht (microtype)?

--
Greetings

Pete

Competition is the great eroder of profits.

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RS-2

Re: The microtype mystery

In reply to this post by George Gratzer-4

Hi George, Josep Maria, all,

the solution is to add the following lines after loading microtype:

\makeatletter
\def\MT@register@subst@font{\MT@exp@one@n\MT@in@clist\font@name\MT@font@list
\ifMT@inlist@\else\xdef\MT@font@list{\MT@font@list\font@name,}\fi}
\makeatother

With the examples provided to me by George and Josep Maria (thanks very
much to both of you!), loading microtype will now increase the
compilation time by a factor of 2.5 to 3. Even though this is still
slower than I would have expected, it is bearable, I suppose. I may be
able to speed microtype up a bit more, but will have to postpone this
for later.

For the interested, here's the background:
* Every time a font is `picked up' by latex, microtype checks whether it
has already seen this font: if it has, it will do nothing; if it hasn't,
microtype will do its work (set up protrusion and everything else) and
then add the font name to the list of fonts it has already dealt with.
- Explanation #1: Compiling documents that are loaded with maths gets so
slow because every time math mode is entered, latex picks up lots of
math fonts, triggering microtype for each one. This accounts for the
factor 2.5 to 3 we now get (with the above fix).
* Now, there are also cases where a font is not available, but will be
substituted (e.g. if small caps are not available, the regular shape
will be used). microtype is aware of these substitutions, and also adds
the substitute to the list of fonts it has already seen.
- Explanation #2: Without the fix, microtype would have added
substituted fonts *every time they were picked up*, which could lead to
duplicates in microtype's font list. This was responsible for the epic
deceleration, in particular together with the latexsym package, which
replaces the bold font with the regular one -- every time a math symbol
is typeset, regardless whether defined by latexsym or not! --
potentially leading to thousands of duplicates in the font list.

The two lines given above should fix that.

Regards,
--
Robert

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